You need to unlearn stereotypes that you have been taught, sometimes by your family, friends, and the educational system

Série Femmes, filles et sciences

Entretien avec Mirja Gruhn et Svend Walter.

Le Service pour la science et la technologie de l’Ambassade de France en Allemagne met en lumière des femmes scientifiques et des managers de projets, en particulier des coopérations franco-allemandes scientifiques féminines, contribuant ainsi à la déclinaison par l’Ambassade de France en Allemagne de la stratégie internationale de la France pour une diplomatie féministe (2025-2030). Plus d’informations : https://de.ambafrance.org/Strategie-internationale-de-la-France-pour-une-diplomatie-feministe-2025-2030

Mirja Gruhn, professeure au lycée Klosterschule de Hambourg et Svend Walter, professeur au lycée Nelson Mandela de Poitiers ont répondu à nos questions.

Svend Walter et Mirja Gruhn ont créé ensemble, dans le cadre d’un échange entre les deux lycées, le projet « Femmes scientifiques : Portraits croisés ». Ce projet, développé avec le soutien du Service pour la science et la technologie de l’Ambassade de France à Berlin, de l’Office Franco-Allemand pour la Jeunesse, de l’académie de Poitiers et du département de la Vienne, offre aux élèves la possibilité de poser des questions sur leur métier à des femmes scientifiques françaises et allemandes.

Plus d’informations sur leur projet : https://femmes-scientifiques.com/

Can you introduce the project Femmes Scientifiques ?

Svend Walter: Initially, in 2017, I tried to find a partner high school because we were opening a European class. In France, a European class means an additional hour in a non-linguistic class and in the chosen language. There are few scientific European classes with german language, and we created a European class in physical sciences, which later became a scientific class so that everyone could participate. I contacted German high schools for a joint educational project, and Mirja responded. Our school has very science-oriented programs, and her school had a different profile, which was interesting. I wanted to do something focused only on girls, and Mirja added that it would also be interesting for boys. The more balanced the environment, the better things go, even in professional settings. So, initially, we set up this project with the “Office franco-allemand pour la Jeunesse” (OFAJ), conducting cross-interviews in the first year and visiting Airbus. This was the very first interview we conducted. Over time, we continued to find women to interview. Over the course of a year, students think about the questions and correct the translations made by their classmates from the previous interview. Questions emerge from the students as time goes on. For example, the question « What did you want to do when you were little? » emerged towards the end of 2021. Another question was « Did you face sexist remarks during your studies? »

Mirja Gruhn:  Our high school is not scientific at all; it’s more focused on the arts. So, we do a lot of visual arts, music, theater, and there aren’t many girls interested in scientific fields. Therefore, it is interesting for us to do an exchange with a high school that has a scientific profile. We are located in the city center of Hamburg, where there are many companies, which is interesting for the students from Poitiers. The « Femmes Scientifiques » project is part of the exchange between Hamburg and Poitiers, and if you talk to the students who participated three years ago, what they remember most are the experiences in France.

Svend Walter: Yes, when I see former students again, they say, « Oh, Hamburg was great, sir! » Of course, when we visit the Airbus factory in Hamburg, they remember that. And the fact that we interviewed a female quality control engineer, not so much. We have an ambition that is still measured because, regarding gender stereotypes, this is a small action we are taking. The idea was to conduct interviews that could be reused in primary and middle schools. That was my idea. But if it works, even for just one young girl, I am very happy.

What is your connection to France and Germany?

Mirja Gruhn: When I was in school, in the eleventh grade, I spent ten months in Toulouse with a host family. After that, I took advanced French classes in school and then did my first year of studies in Bordeaux. I also studied French as part of my master’s degree in Bremen. I enjoy teaching French, but students don’t like it as much compared to Spanish, and we still have Latin. That’s why I wanted to do an exchange, a sort of advertisement to encourage choosing French.

Svend Walter: I have a German father so it helps. I think we could do more to promote German in France. Everyone wants to learn English, and Spanish as well, especially in the region where we are in Poitiers, it’s easier. However, we know that Germany is a crucial economic partner. And then there is the historical aspect, the fact that at some point, we stopped fighting each other and could have things in common, a shared culture. And for that, the Élysée Treaty is something very important.

Does the exchange increase the interest for the other country in your students?

Mirja Gruhn: What I noticed is that the students in the years after the exchange still choose to study french, even if it not mandatory anymore.

Svend Walter: Yes, and I would say 10 to 20% of the students will go on longer stays in the partner country with programs like Sauzay, Voltaire, etc. So, we also think that maybe they will continue with German later on. The most important thing is to know the culture, how the other person lives, and that they are not too different from us.

Why did you choose to do a project related to women in science?

Svend Walter:  I was raised by a mother who had strong feminist ideas about gender equality, access to contraception, and abortion. She was from a generation that fought for these rights and, most importantly, to maintain them. At the university, I aimed to show that in scientific careers, you don’t necessarily need a master’s degree; there are technicians, engineers, those who maintain machines, and secretaries. I continued this effort through the various positions I held, and what I found interesting was working with the OFAJ. It was also about comparing whether, culturally, we face the same conditions in terms of gender equality. Are there the same protective laws? Do women earn as much as men? Because labor relations are handled differently in France and Germany. These are the questions we try to ask. Sometimes we tell the women that they don’t have to answer, because it can be uncomfortable to realize that, yes, they may have lost two years of advancement or earn less than male colleagues.

Mirja Gruhn: I teach French and political science and the idea of Svend interested me also because in political science class, when I show students the gender pay gap, they are very surprised, they don’t know anything about it.

Do you take other actions to promote science to girls?

Svend Walter: Today, we are trying to focus the project on achieving the topic of gender parity, in the workplace, in work groups, and at school, rather than having environments dominated by either boys or girls, which can be uncomfortable. In computer science class, we interviewed female astronomers who enhance the colors of the photos from the James Webb Space Telescope, which are truly magnificent and produced by NASA. Afterward, one girl said, « I can do that too; the woman we interviewed isn’t Marie Curie. » Having role models who are relatable to high school girls shows them that these women are not extraordinary beings; they are like them, they have children, they go grocery shopping. And when they have time, they retouch an image, and it turns out amazing, they are world-renowned, so that’s pretty cool.

Did you notice differences when it comes to women in science between France and Germany through your project?

Svend Walter: I have noticed that German girls are more surprised by science, but I think it comes from their specialization at school. For example, when we had a French student who spent her Wednesday afternoons participating in chemistry olympiads, some German girls would ask, « But why? Why do you spend so much time doing chemistry? Have you always wanted to do this? How did you get into it? » And they also saw that she was a normal person who drew, played sports, and had friends who went out. For French students, doing science is normal. After all, they are at Mandela High School, so generally, they have scientific profiles, and it seems obvious to them that there are many careers in science, especially for the European classes. Also I noticed that the German women we interviewed seemed more surprised by questions about salary differences or children, perhaps more so than French female scientists.

What advice would you give to girls and young women?

Svend Walter: It’s complicated at their age, but they need to unlearn stereotypes they’ve been taught, sometimes by their family, friends, and the educational system. And if they love science, stars, chemistry, or mathematics, they should try to find resourceful people. Often in their surroundings, among teachers, there is always someone they can ask what to read or watch about the subject they love.

Mirja Gruhn: If you notice that you like something, you should ask someone how you can pursue it, look for examples at school, in families, among neighbors, and tell them about your interest. Keep exploring it. For example, if a student tells me she wants to study chemistry, I will work with her to find out how to get an internship, where to study… It is the same with boys, if they want to go into social subjects.

 

Entretien réalisé en francais le 06 mars 2025 par Julie LE GALL et Noela MULLER,
du Service pour la Science et la Technologie de l’Ambassade de France en Allemagne.