Through my passion for mathematics, I try to tell to young women : if they love a field, they should go for it. They shouldn’t think that in a field with mostly men it is not possible to flourish and evolve.
Série Femmes, filles et sciences
Entretien avec Mathilde Mougeot et Brigitte Forster-Heinlein.
Le Service pour la science et la technologie de l’Ambassade de France en Allemagne met en lumière des femmes scientifiques et des managers de projets, en particulier des coopérations franco-allemandes scientifiques féminines, contribuant ainsi à la feuille de route de l’Ambassade de France en Allemagne sur l’égalité femmes-hommes.
A l’occasion de la Journée Internationale des Mathématiques, le 14 mars, deux chercheuses, Prof. Dr. Mathilde Mougeot de l’Institut Borelli de l’ENS Paris-Saclay et professeure à l’ENSIIE, et Prof. Dr. Brigitte Forster-Heinlein de l’Université de Passau, ont répondu à nos questions.
Can you introduce yourself, and your research?
Brigitte Forster-Heinlein: I am professor for Applied Mathematics at Passau University, where my research spans a broad range of topics, including signal and image processing, as well as approximation theory. In one of my recent projects, for example, we explored curvature in microscopic images. Another area of my research focuses on teaching and learning research, in collaboration with a colleague from Norway. I teach computer science students, mathematics students, and future teachers.
In addition to my research work, I founded a math museum in Passau twelve years ago, which I run with my students. This project is particularly meaningful, as it allows students—especially those studying to become teachers—to merge their mathematical and didactical knowledge. It’s a valuable opportunity for them to learn how to engage and guide students, explain mathematical concepts, and even create their own exhibits to share with others.
Mathilde Mougeot: I am also a professor of applied mathematics at an engineering school called ENSIIE, which stands for École nationale supérieure d’Informatique pour l’industrie et l’entreprise. I conduct my research at the Borelli Center of ENS Paris-Saclay. My research focuses on statistics, particularly statistical learning in industrial applications. Since 2016, I have held an industrial chair with partners such as Michelin, SNCF, CEA, CNRS, and two academic partners, ENS Paris-Saclay and ensIIE. Specifically, I am interested in predictive models, which are widely used for decision-making in various contexts. I also supervise PhD students within this chair, working on different themes.
Why did you want to study mathematics and be a researcher in this field?
Mathilde Mougeot: I loved a course during my studies called Information Theory, where a professor showed us images from a Franco-German satellite. I was truly captivated by the idea of exploiting real-world terrain images, which were satellite images, using various methods. So, I pursued a Master 2 degree in image processing, pattern recognition, and statistics. I then started a PhD focused on what we now call neural networks, applying connectionist methods to image processing. I had always enjoyed math throughout my education, but doing a PhD in math was really the turning point for me, and from there, it was a natural progression.
Brigitte Forster-Heinlein: At school, I also enjoyed math, though it wasn’t immediately clear what path I would take. Initially, I considered studying music, as I played the guitar. However, I had the opportunity to attend a math course for school students at the Technical University of Munich (TUM) for just one day. Although I didn’t understand much, I was captivated by the clear, logical reasoning behind it, which fascinated me. This experience led me to pursue a degree in mathematics with a minor in electrical engineering, and it turned out to be a great decision, as I was both happy and successful in my studies.
What is your connection with the other country?
Mathilde Mougeot: I studied German as my first language for twelve years. In 2018, as part of the industrial chair I hold, I had the opportunity to meet Harald Koch from the University of Passau. He had already started organizing summer schools, so together with Harald and Axelle Cheney, who joined us shortly after, we organized three thematic schools: in 2018 at ENS Paris-Saclay, in 2019 in Germany, and in 2020, a virtual Franco-German school with over 100 participants. In 2022, I had the chance to participate in a challenge for Master’s students at the University of Passau. Also, the University of Passau sponsored ensIIE to join the Université Franco-Allemande. Right after that, in 2019, we established a double degree program in computer science between the University of Passau and ensIIE. This is something we would like to expand further with the director of international relations.
Brigitte Forster-Heinlein: As for the science, I don’t have many professional connections in France, but I do have personal ones. My hometown had a „jumelage” with a French town, and we visited France every year. When I went to university, I spent an Erasmus semester in Metz. I really enjoyed it because the way mathematics was taught there was completely different from what I had experienced, both in terms of mathematical techniques and the topics covered. Many of the courses I attended during that time are ones I now teach to my own students, as I developed a deep passion for these subjects. And I have already had the priviledge three times to being invited to a conference at the renowned CIRM.
What was your experience as a woman in science and more precisely as a woman in mathematics?
Mathilde Mougeot: I defended my thesis in 1992, at a time when there was a prestigious pathway known as the École Normale Supérieure, with separate institutions for men and women. So, in France, talented women in mathematics were recruited annually. During my studies and thesis, I had the opportunity to interact with female mathematics professors who held prominent positions. Honestly, I never felt disadvantaged as a woman in this field. However, recently, I was struck by a conversation among female students at ENSIIE who were discussing gender parity and sharing their difficulties being so few in number at an engineering school. There were about 15% female students, roughly eighteen out of more than 120 students. I sensed that there was indeed some discomfort for some young girls in being in an environment dominated by men. I try to share my passion for mathematics with these students and encourage them to believe that if they love a field, they should go for it. They shouldn’t think that in a field with mostly men it is not possible to flourish and evolve.
Brigitte Forster-Heinlein When I started at TUM, there were 50% women in my program. However, in my minor, Electrical Engineering, there were only about five women out of 800 students. For instance, when we entered the room, people would whistle. I quickly learned that I had to stand my ground in such situations, not hide, and simply focus on doing the work and demonstrating my knowledge. During my PhD and postdoc years, the ratio was more balanced again, but as a junior professor at TUM, there were few female professors. When I moved to Passau, there hadn’t been a female professor in mathematics for quite some time. I feel very comfortable here, but I do recall one PhD defense shortly after my arrival, where I was one of the examiners. All the parents and friends of the candidate were sitting in the audience, whispering, « That’s her! » But you just have to stand firm, express what you want to do, and then do it. I love mathematics, and I try to share as much of it as I can with my students.
Do you have any solutions to avoid this situation?
Mathilde Mougeot: I am the deputy director of the FMJH, which stands for the Fondation Mathématique Jacques Hadamard. Along with the director Pascal Massart, we organized scholarships intended for girls studying at the Institut Polytechnique de Paris or the Université Paris-Saclay who are pursuing research-oriented paths. Through patronage, we offer ten scholarships per year, which are excellence scholarships aimed at financially supporting young women who are passionate about studying mathematics and are on a research track. We hope this will encourage them to pursue doctoral studies. We have also established a mentoring program within the FMJH, where female researchers or postdocs mentor young women, and these mentors are financially compensated for their time. However, in my professional environment, imposing gender parity in recruitment committees can indirectly lead to an overload of requests for women in the mathematics field, as there are fewer of us than men. This results in frequent solicitations for juries, especially in areas like artificial intelligence, statistics, and machine learning. While this is beneficial in the long term, it can be challenging in the short term when there are so few of us to meet the demand. It’s crucial, and I believe that what is most important is not just what we do in the academic world today, but also what needs to be done from kindergarten to high school. In France, we see that women often move away from scientific fields after high school graduation. At our level, we are trying to make a difference, but it is also very important to act earlier in the educational process.
Brigitte Forster-Heinlein: I have also experienced the challenge of being the only woman in many committees. This is problematic, as it often leaves us with less time for research. However, I believe having a woman on a committee makes a difference, as it brings different perspectives into the conversation, such as making achievements of women more visible. To inspire kids and teens, I visit schools to conduct workshops. I believe it is crucial for school kids, especially young girls, to see that there are female mathematicians and engineers, and that pursuing these fields is a normal and attainable goal.
Mathilde Mougeot: I have also participated in school initiatives to show that there are interesting things to do in the field of science. Today, we see that young people are less inclined to go to preparatory classes because of the high pressure and intense workload; they prefer to learn at their own pace. I believe we need to stop associating mathematics only with selection because we risk losing people who are not interested in the competitive aspect but could still be interested in mathematics. Math can be used for selection in competitive fields, but it is also a way to understand the world today. I was invited to the École Normale in Paris to teach a math course to literature and philosophy students. These were individuals who had given up on math early on, despite being in highly selective fields. The goal was to show them that math is everywhere. Math is also a step towards freedom for everyone, especially for women.
What advice would you give to girls and young women that have an interest for science?
Brigitte Forster-Heinlein: Follow your dreams! One piece of advice my father always gave me when I was a child was a quote from Mark Twain: “If you don’t know where you want to go, you shouldn’t be surprised If you end up somewhere completely different”. I believe this is very true. You need to have clear goals, and if you want to pursue mathematics or science, make the decision and follow through with your aspirations.
Mathilde Mougeot: If young women and men want to pursue careers in mathematics, I would encourage them to focus on fundamental math while keeping an eye on applied mathematics. Even if one does not enjoy math, which I fully respect, or does not wish to pursue it, I believe that in today’s world, one cannot avoid quantification and the need for a basic understanding of economics to comprehend the rules and not be intimidated by the evolution of the modern world. It is important to be curious about everything, but I think mathematics is a universal language that allows us to formalize and simplify the real world through hypotheses. So, let us remain curious and develop the ability to use simple mathematical tools to understand and advance in the world.
Entretien réalisé en francais et anglais le 10 mars 2025 par Julie LE GALL et Noela MULLER,
du Service pour la Science et la Technologie de l’Ambassade de France en Allemagne.